The debate over pre vs post tribulation rapture has divided many and understanding this correctly could have major consequences for the choices you make as we rapidly approach the tribulation.
In this post I will go over the “proofs” offered by endtime.com for a post tribulation rapture and provide counter arguments in favor of a pre-tribulation interpretation. However, many of the “proofs” of post-tribulation are nothing more than alternative explanations for things that type and shadow a “pre-tribulation”. In other words, saying something “doesn’t prove the pre-trib” is not the same thing as saying that something “proves the post-trib”. For the sake of brevity I will mostly debunk the claimed positive proofs.
Why does it Matter?
Once you understand that the Tribulation contains Nuclear World War III, and if you have faith enough in the Bible to act on that information then the choices you make may be very different. Post tribulation teachings inspire or tempt those who want to survive to bug out and buy beens, bullion, bullets, and bunkers. There is no “good news” to share, because judgment day comes for all and most people will end up in hard deaths after years of misery. Some of these teachers will teach that God’s people will be protected in the midst of the tribulation just not teleported to some “island of safety”.
He (the beast) was further permitted to wage war on God’s holy people (the saints) and to overcome them. And power was given him to extend his authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation, — Revelation 13:7
Any saints that end up inside the Tribulation (because they repented after it began) are not guaranteed to be supernaturally protected from the war being waged on them by the beast.
https://medium.com/media/ca993625be53dcf3e9db056a3b45d0fe/href#1 Immediately after the Tribulation of those Days…
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:…
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. — Matthew 24:29–31
This is the most often quoted verse to prove their case. I agree that this verse is describing the rapture, and taken at face value appears to describe a post-tribulation rapture. So lets dive into the timing by first going to the greek. The word translated as “after” is “meta” which many people will recognize from “meta-data” to “meta-verse” and even today, in English, we associate it with the meaning of “about” or “with”.
78 % of the time the King James Bible translates it as “with” and a cursory review of the times it was translated as “after” reveals that many of those translations would be just as legitimate if you substituted the word “with” for “after”, but the reverse is not true. This means that the “choice” of “after” vs “with” is something the translator is reading into the text and that the word “with” could be used in excess of 78% of the time.
This means you could more legitimately translate that as “immediately with the tribulation of those days”, which would place the rapture at the very start of the tribulation “immediately”. The very word immediately implies that it must be “with, or next to, or parallel to” because meta automatically implies proximity/closeness and for “meta” to be translated as after would automatically imply “right after” because if it wasn’t right after it could no longer be considered “meta”.
In order to confirm that “with” is a better translation than “after” would require integrating the context of the rest of scripture. In other words, the meaning of “with” vs “after” depends upon what the rest of scripture teaches and cannot define or decide the doctrine. So lets dive deeper into this verse.
The Four Winds / Spirits of Heaven
The four winds of heaven are where everyone is gathered from, so how does the Bible define that?
Jeremiah 49:36 says that ‘the four winds from the four quarters of heaven’ scattered Israel to all nations. — this gives the winds influence over people
Daniel 7:2 says the four winds of heaven “stove” and brought forth 4 beasts out of the sea. — winds worked to bring forth the 4 beasts.
Ezekiel 37:9 is told to prophecy to the dry bones, “come from the four winds, o breath, and breath on these slain, that they may live.” thereby associating the winds with breath and spirit and the resurrection. The four winds are not a location, but an spiritual actor.
Daniel 11:4 could be interpreted as “his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided by the four winds of heaven.”
Zec 2:6 — “Flee from the land of the north, saith 𐤉𐤄𐤅𐤄, for I have spread you abroad by the four winds of heaven.” This verse is in the context of the land of the north attacking Babylon the Great in the last days. “For I, saith 𐤉𐤄𐤅𐤄, will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and will be the glory in the midst of her.”
Rev 7:1 — And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding (restraining) the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea (people), nor on any tree (nation). And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea. Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. … After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;… And he said to me, These are they which came out[away from] of great tribulation.The word translated as “wind” in the old testament is “roo’-akh” and is translated as Spirit over 70% of the time. So the four-winds of heaven are four spirits of heaven.the sun, moon, and stars being darkened as sackcloth for 1260 days and is caused by the smoke of the burning of the fall of Babylon and what I believe is likely a Nuclear Winter type situation.the 144,000 witness for 1260 days after being sealed, and at the 3rd seal the four horsemen are told not to harm the oil and wine (the anointed).
Given all of this evidence, it appears that the #1 verse used to claim post-tribulation rapture has in-fact become a powerful argument for pre-tribulation rapture.
#2 Falling Away and Man of Sin Revealed
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, — II Thes 2:3
There is a strong case that the phrase “the apostasy” is a definite thing and is better translated as “the departure” which could easily describe a pre-tribulation rapture.
Gordon Lewis explains how the verb from which the noun apostasia is derived supports the basic meaning of departure in the following: The verb may mean to remove spatially. There is little reason then to deny that the noun can mean such a spatial removal or departure. Since the noun is used only one other time in the New Testament of apostasy from Moses (Acts 21:21), we can hardly conclude that its Biblical meaning is necessarily determined. The verb is used fifteen times in the New Testament. Of these fifteen, only three have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8;13; 1 Tim. 4:1; Heb 3:12). The word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Tim. 2:19), from ungodly men(1 Tim. 6:5), from the temple (Luke 2:27), from the body (2 Cor. 12:8), and from persons (Acts 12:10; Luke 4:13).2
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either “departure” or “departing.” They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608). This supports the notion that the word truly means “departure.” In fact, Jerome’s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of A.D. 400 renders apostasia with the “word discessio, meaning ‘departure.’”6
Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of “departure”?
For more information see this article by Thomas D. Ice of Liberty University that goes much more in depth.
It is sufficient to say that 2 Thes 1–4 can easily be read to say that the rapture (departure) will occur first, and then immediately after the antichrist will be revealed. So the top two verses look to strongly support pre-tribulation and not post-tribulation once we escape the bias of the catholic theology influenced translators.
#3 The First Resurrection
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. … Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.— Rev 20:4
This says that those killed for Yeshua during the tribulation would rule with him for 1000 years, thereby making them part of the 1st resurrection. The argument is that there is only “one” first resurrection and therefore a pre-tribulation would create “two” resurrections separated by 7 years.
We know that Enoch, Elija, Yeshua were raised. But also, The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. — Matt 27:52–53
Clearly there are multiple ways of enumerating the resurrections. For example, we call the tribulation the 2nd coming of Yeshua, but the Bible clearly indicates that after he rose and appeared he ascended then came back down for 40 days. He also appeared to Paul. Instead of thinking of individual events, think about them as seasons. His first coming was a season of about 73.5 years from John the Baptist to the temple destruction.
Another way to understand this is as a harvest season. There is Barley, Wheat, Oil, and Wine. One year (or period) of harvest but many different types harvested.
#4 Wheat and Tares
Matthew 13’s parable of the wheat and the tares (verses 24–30 and 36–43) describes the harvest of the wicked and good as one simultaneous event, not two events separated by seven years. Those who say it does allow for a seven year gap cannot explain away verse 30, which says, “Gather ye together first the tares (the wicked).” According to Jesus, the wheat is not harvested before the tares. — endtimes.com
Also note that there is the barely, wine, and oil harvests. It is impossible to talk about the rapture without talking about the rest of the end times events. For example, when does the Fall of Babylon the Great occur?
And will send unto Babylon fanners, that shall fan (winnow/sift) her, and shall empty her land: for in the day of trouble they shall be against her round about. — Jeremiah 51:2
The fall of Babylon by a surprise, sudden destruction, by nuclear war is the opening act and in the midst of burning the thistles and thorns and fanners are separating the good seed from the chafe which gets burnt. Jeremiah 50 and 51 are full of rapture descriptions in the midst of sudden and complete destruction.
#5 Alive and Remain
I Thessalonians 4:15–18 talks about the rapture of those who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord. The Greek word for remain is “perileipo.” According to Strong’s, it can also be translated as “survive.” This is not surprising, because the word “peril” is at the root of “perileipo.” Remain means “remain as in surviving the peril.” This does not seem to support a pre-tribulation rapture theory. — endtimes.com
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Those who are still alive after 2000 years suffered much peril. This argument is not black and white and is therefore no kind of evidence.
#6 There are Christians in the Tribulation
In Revelation 13:7, the Antichrist makes war against saints who are from all kindreds, tongues, and nations. That does not describe Jews-only. — endtimes.com
Of course there are! Not all who say Lord, Lord will enter and many will repent and be saved from all nations in the midst of the Tribulation.
#7 The Last Trump
I Corinthians 15:51–54 speaks of the last trump. Revelation 11:15–19 speaks of the last trump. The description of what happens at the last trump in each of these passages is the same. — endtimes.com
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
The assumption is that the 7 trumpets are in order, but endtimes.com in point #14 asserts that they do not hold Revelation to sequential order and accuse pre-tribulation believers of making that mistake; therefore, the sequence of the revelation trumps is not evidence of timing in itself.
There are many things that could be a last trump, but consider that Revelations and the 7 trumpets were written after Paul’s letter, so he couldn’t have been referring to the 7 trumpets of revelation; however, it isn’t just a trumpet we should be waiting for.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first…
Instead, this is a reference to Jericho where Jericho is a symbol of Babylon the Great.
So the people shouted when the priests blew with the trumpets: and it came to pass, when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, and the people shouted with a great shout, that the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they took the city. — Joshua 6:20
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
But Joshua had said unto the two men that had spied out the country, Go into the harlot’s house, and bring out thence the woman, and all that she hath, as ye sware unto her. And the young men that were spies went in, and brought out Rahab, and her father, and her mother, and her brethren, and all that she had; and they brought out all her kindred, and left them outside the camp of Israel. — Joshua 6:22–23
Then… after Rahab was safe… they burnt the city.
And they burnt the city with fire, and all that was therein... — Joshua 6:24
#8 Gathering at Armageddon
Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. — Revelation 16:15–16
C. C. Torrey, Kline and Jordan, argue that the word is derived from the Hebrew moed (מועד), meaning “assembly”. Thus, “Armageddon” would mean “Mountain of Assembly”, which Jordan says is “a reference to the assembly at Mount Sinai, and to its replacement, Mount Zion”.
This is a gathering of the elect, like described in Matthew 24. The three unclean spirits, the frogs that come out of the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet go to the kings of the earth to gather them to the battle of that great day.
So Satan gathers his forces and YHVH gathers his people, then after YHVH has gathered his people the seventh bowl of wrath is poured out. Note Endtimes.com has already conceeded the the order of bowls is not evidence of sequence of events.
#14 Assumed Sequential Order
A simple comparison between the 7th Trumpet (Chapter 11) and 7th Vial (Chapter 16) reveals that they are the same, singular event. Add to this comparison the 6th Seal (Chapter 6), Ezekiel 38:18–22, and Matthew 24:29 and we find that all five of these passages describe the exact same event. The 6th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial is one event that is described in Chapter 6, again in Chapter 11, and again in 16. Obviously, Revelation is not in the assumed chronological sequence. — endtimes.com
By this very logic, the 7th trump of revelation cannot be simultaneously assumed to be the “last trump” occurring at the end of the tribulation.
Notice that this argument depends upon Matthew 24:29 being translated as “immediately after” instead of the more likely and frequent translation of “immediately with/at”.
In my opinion all of these things are describing an event at the start of the tribulation after which the sun, moon, and stars are darkened for at least 3.5 years due to nuclear winter.
We know that Satan is thrown down at the mid point, after the abomination of desolation. So how can his wrath be at the start?
And the ten horns (BRICS) which thou saw upon the beast, these shall hate the whore (G7 sits on 7 mountains/nations/kingdoms), and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire (nukes).For God hath put in their hearts to fulfill his will (the Fall of Babylon), and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. And the woman which you saw is that great city (Babylon), which reigneth over the kings of the earth.— Rev 17:17–18
#16 Mid Tribulation Rapture
Some have taught a mid-tribulation rapture. However, this position is impossible since it assumes that the Tribulation lasts for seven years. Yet, there is not one scripture in the entire Bible that describes a seven-year tribulation
The two witnesses preach for 1260 days which are “clothed in sackcloth”, are killed, raise up after 3.5 days, and then the woman fled to the wilderness for 1260 days.
Simple Evidence for A Pre-Tribulation Rapture
Jeremiah’s 70 years must fulfill everything in his bookDaniel’s 70 Jubilees are the same as Jeremiah’s 70 years and expands to fulfill everything in the prophets up to DanielBoth books and other prophets show the resurrection and fall of Babylon and the rapture occurring in the midst.2024 is the last year of 70 x 49 years from the Jordan crossing.Therefore, due to the time constraints, it simply isn’t possible for prophecies in those books to be fulfilled after a 3.5 year or 7 year tribulation.
https://medium.com/media/5572eff9ce0c3110148fbd9039f75ce5/href